TWANE DUCKWORTH: Welcome, and thank you for joining us for another episode of Women in Risk and Education, a part of WTW's U of Risk, the campus where you get everything you need to know about insurance and risk management. We're excited to have with us today Sandy Mitchell, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the venerable MIT, as it's known around the world, to regale us with tales of intrigue and interest in her world of managing risk for a higher education institution.
I'm going to turn this over to Sandy because we're getting ready to have some fun.
SANDY MITCHELL: Well, thanks for having me. I'm Sandy Mitchell, as you said, and I'm with MIT. I head up our Office of Insurance and we meet all the property and casualty needs of MIT, plus the risk services that are attendant to all of that as well. So I've been doing this a long time, and I've done all sides of it.
I've been a broker for a bit. I've done consulting. I've worked on the insurance carrier side. But it wasn't until my first job in the corporate risk management side that I said, oh, I could see making a career out of doing insurance and risk management, because that's sort of where I found my sweet spot. And before I came to MIT, I had the foray onto the broker side. I sort of made the decision at some point, now, I like doing risk management. I like being the client and made a concerted effort to get back to that. And that's how I ended up at MIT.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: I always find it interesting to figure out what it was that attracted people to the discipline of risk management. Was there any particular aspect that was alluring to you to say, this is what I want to do?
SANDY MITCHELL: Well, early on, my first job in the insurance industry was because they paid more than the banks did and I had student loans that had to be paid. And in my era, there were a lot of people that ended up doing that because of that reason. It was the first job into risk management. I had actually gone back at some point to get my graduate degree, figuring that will help me make a move out of the industry.
And when I went to the corporate side, it was in a risk management capacity, but they were looking for someone willing to do something else. And I said, awesome. It was a great company, gave me the opportunity. And once I landed there, I thought, wait a minute, I love this side of it. Being on the corporate side and being the in-house expert was sort of what I liked.
And that was why I decided to stay in it and continue on in the industry and rather than making a move out of it was because I really enjoyed that side of it, using all the training I had gotten up to that moment and applying it, working for a specific company, providing guidance. People came to me for answers, and I love that. I mean, I think we all want to be wanted in our professional capacities, and that was really what did it for me.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: That was a very interesting perspective, because I know that, in fact, a couple of my former employees, subordinates, have gone on to become risk managers now. And one of the things that they still talk with them about, and they call me up because every once in a while they have a question. They say, Twane, how did you do this? How did you handle that?
But one of the most consistent themes that plays out when I speak with them is they go, oh, my gosh, I have to know everything about the company. I did not realize how much you did when I was working for you. And so being that resident expert, I actually think that a lot of times, risk managers, beyond a couple of people in the C-suite, are the most knowledgeable people of an organization.
SANDY MITCHELL: Well, you see a lot of the things going on. I mean, whether you're actively involved in it every day, you see all aspects of what's going on throughout the university, which is quite interesting. I just feel like I'm always learning something new. I mean, I've been at MIT 11 years, and I keep finding out things. We do that? Really? OK. Is there anything I need to worry about here and everything else?
Because it's always sort of changing and growing along with you, so there's always something to do.
I will say that, on the corporate side, I worked for a large manufacturing company, and I was hanging out because I was looking to take over the department and all of that. But MIT is so much more interesting because I always joke that if you're in risk management working at a place like MIT, there's so much risk. It's never boring. There's always something different to work on and to do, and that's what keeps me engaged in the entire process.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Sure. And because of that continuous evolution of risk, how important would you say it is to have a mentor? And if so, in your own life, what has a mentor been for you in that aspect of risk management?
SANDY MITCHELL: So it's interesting. I don't know if I've ever had a formal mentor. I know a lot of people have. I know some people I've considered mentors, whether they realized it or not, is a different issue. And I wish I had been more active in that and seeking people out, to be honest with you. I think it's a great part of your career to manage.
But I had a number of people that were there. I have a number of friends, still, that are my mentors now. I have a group of seven or eight of us that are on a text, and we text daily. Whether it's personal stuff or work stuff, because we're all in the industry, they're my mentors now and help me guide questions and things like that.
And I'm now at the point in my career of giving back. I mean, I'm not the up and comer. I'm sort of at whatever level I'm considered to be at, I don't want to say senior level, but to me-- and I've realized this probably in the last five years, I want to give back to the people that are up and coming.
It's important to me, and some of it, I've done a number of speeches on your risk management brand and how you manage that and all of that, but I liken it to I made mistakes along the way. And maybe I can impart some information, so you don't make the same mistakes, that you're a step ahead of me in managing your career than I was when I went through it.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: I think that's truly critical because quite frankly, in an environment such as risk management, again, there's always something new. Emerging risk is literally the pinnacle of what we do. We are out there at the forefront. We're always trying to get ahead of the curve, and there's always a new change and dynamic to our discipline.
So I'm excited to hear that you do that. I'm appreciative that you are a part of that community of people who are so determined to give back and help people and guide them and direct them. Again, I do it all the time. Now, I'm far from the person who's been out there the longest, if you would.
But I've done risk management for a number of different public entities and organizations. And again, I still get phone calls from some prior employees and people who are a part of my organization. They go, how do we handle this? And it's always an interesting concept to say, OK, here's how I can give back in a certain way.
So I'm glad to hear that you do that. In fact, I find that, quite frankly, in this environment, most of us do feel that way. So congratulations to you for continuing to feel that way and exercise that kind of practice.
SANDY MITCHELL: So this has been a good week for me. Let me give you two examples. So a couple years ago, I did-- it was part of a presentation on your risk management brand. And one of the things I try and tell people, you need to advocate for yourself. You gotta do the work, don't get me wrong. But sometimes if you think you deserve the promotion, you need to ask for it. It's not always just given to you and so to encourage people to feel emboldened to do that.
And after that presentation, I had a group of women-- it happened to be in this case-- came up to talk to me. I since then presented a similar topic to their internal company, and one of the women in the last week has recently been promoted. And she put it out on LinkedIn, and I congratulated her, and she wrote to me separately and she says, thank you for your encouragement and your words.
And it meant the world to me that just putting that out there and giving people the confidence or allowing them to make that step, she was giving me credit. I said it was all you. You did the work and everything else. I just gave you a couple of words and gave you the confidence to go for it. But thank you.
And then this morning, someone wrote to me to ask me to be their mentor, which meant the world to me. I was like, really? You want me? And I've interacted with this person a couple times, but it's what I value right now, sort of in my career. I mean, aside from doing my day-to-day job, it's one of the things that I really value.
I have a young daughter that's in college and so I want her to have those sorts of relationships with people that help her along. So feeling like I'm doing a little part to help someone along in their career means the world to me.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: It's truly a rewarding feeling. I can attest. And it's humbling, quite frankly, because a lot of times, I'm like, little old me?
SANDY MITCHELL: Exactly. That's how react. I said I'm honored that you would ask, and yes, I'm more than happy to play this role. And I don't mean play a role but be a part of that. But yes, I was like, really? So yeah, it was a good day already, and it's before noon time.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Well, that's beautiful. I love to hear that. Well, speaking of the fact, I have daughters as well, and I wanted to ask you, because this is our series on women in risk and education, do you have any sort of general advice for women who are coming into the industry and how to navigate things and particularly for the higher education arena?
SANDY MITCHELL: Keeping track. At some point in my career, I looked back and said, I've done all these things, and part of the first presentation I did on this whole thing was the intentionality of careers. I don't know if I was intentionally doing all this stuff, but all of a sudden, I'm like, I've taught, I've done this.
And I find there are some people out there, and one of the women that presented with us on this are very intentional in the moves that they're making in their career, which is great to see. And so I try and just tell people, you've got to be who you are, but think about everything that you do, because every little extra thing you do leads to the next step.
And another good example is, all my things when I talk about is by examples. My sister, years ago, she was a finance major in college, was working at a bank. They asked for a volunteer to do a project, and she raised her hand, and it was doing something with computers or whatever. It was still fairly new. And that volunteer opportunity led to a completely different career, and she's been in high tech for 20 years now.
And so you just never know what any little thing you do is going to lead you. It may change your trajectory completely differently, and she loves what she does now. She's in the right place. So encourage people, ask a lot of questions, volunteer for things, be active, do your education, whether it's the ARM, the CPCU, because all of that adds to your value, and participate in outside organizations, whether it's a networking group or RIMS or URMIA, there's lots of good contacts there to build your base and build your career path.
And you don't have to do everything all at once, but just do a little at a time. And I think in our industry, too, having the technical knowledge, if you can focus on that, and some of that is the book learning. It will impact you throughout your entire career and so work on building that base as well.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: I love that narrative that you are speaking to because one of my mentors always taught me that success comes when you're prepared to meet an opportunity. And you can have an opportunity and not be prepared, and you can't take advantage, or you could be prepared and never get the opportunity and not take advantage, but you have to have both, simultaneously. And that demands, as you indicated, intentionality, to have things ready in advance of someone even offering you a particular opportunity or a position or something becomes available.
So I agree with that wholeheartedly. I took a number of those types of thought processes into my personal development in saying that when I started in risk management, I was trained as an attorney. That's what my background was, and I just thought I was going to be the Perry Mason of-- I know some of you people are younger, so I always go back to My Cousin Vinny because it never goes away. It's a classic.
SANDY MITCHELL: Perry Mason is-- yeah, it's a classic.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So I thought that's what I was going to do. And then when it came time to me to evaluate some different career choices and I looked into risk management, one of the things I did immediately was begin to participate in those different associations to look at getting certifications that would bolster my knowledge and justify my position and do all those kinds of things.
So you're right, there does have to be a certain level of intentionality, as it relates to progressing and moving forward for success. And one of those organizations you're obviously a part of, URMIA, want to bring that up and acknowledge that. In fact, you're on your way to ascending to the top of URMIA, if you would. And so talk to us about-- actually, for our listeners, just to make sure they're aware, can you describe what URMIA is and talk to us about your current role and where you're headed there.
SANDY MITCHELL: So URMIA-- and I better get this right, because I've done it wrong before-- University Risk Management Insurance Association. And so it's an association of university risk managers. And it's great because we're all doing the same thing, got a number of different sized institutions that are part of URMIA, and so it's a network that you can go to.
Our community conversations, most people refer to them as the listserv, but Jenny has corrected me numerous times to refer to them as community conversations, gives people an opportunity to ask questions and share information with each other. And I've been part of different associations in the past. By far, URMIA has the most sharing, and I think part of it is because higher ed can do that. We're nonprofit. It's much tougher if you're a for profit company to share certain things.
But you don't have to start from scratch all the time if you have somewhere to go, if you're not sure where to start. But yeah, so URMIA, I've been a part of it since I started at MIT 11 years ago. I wasn't as active in the beginning, and I'd volunteer here and there for little things. And it was probably, I think, in 2017 that they were thinking of doing the National Conference in Boston and they asked if I'd like to be one of the chairs. I'm like, cool. Yes.
Because I love Boston and I was sort of in charge of events and finding where we wanted to do events, which was right up my alley. And bringing people to my hometown was great because I think there's so many things that are good about Boston. And from there, I just got more involved, and then ran for the board. And after I was on the board for a bit, they asked if I would consider maybe running for the presidency.
You start as President-elect. It's a three-year commitment to presidency and then past president. And I said I would, but I wouldn't consider it until my daughter went off to school. I felt like I needed to give her the attention she needed through high school, and then when she was off on her own, I'd have more time, and that was where my timing came from that.
And again, it's giving back. URMIA has done a lot for me. It helped me early on at MIT quite a bit, and it's just a matter of helping others that are at a different stage of their career. On the conversations, the emails we get every day, I try and answer once a week. That's my goal is to at least provide some content once a week if I can.
If I can't add value to it, I don't, but I think if everyone thought that way, the conversations would be so robust. But I've used it numerous times to help me do something that I'm working on at MIT.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: And I must admit I am a Boston fan because I love lobster. And I'm telling you, those rolls are absolutely phenomenal. I have plenty of places, but I won't name any because I don't want to promote any particular business, but thank you, Boston, for that. I do appreciate that.
SANDY MITCHELL: Well, I know we're on a podcast, and they're just hearing my voice, but I do have on my Celtics green, although they did lose last night. But in honor of the playoffs, I wore my Celtics green for the podcast.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: All right. So I only have a couple of other questions that I've thought about, and one of them just kind of surrounded the fact that I was talking with a number of people in the higher educational institutions-- trustees and leaders-- and they were talking about some concerns regarding what they're seeing as an unfortunate, possibly negative trend as it relates to fewer people seeking higher educational degrees.
They were talking about educational cliff, just talking about enrollment numbers overall in the future. How do you feel like that might impact some of the schools who are less namesake than an institution like MIT? Are there any concerns that we should be-- any ways to address, possibly, the potential forecast of lower enrollment, which, of course, affects overall revenue for schools and their existence.
SANDY MITCHELL: Yeah, I think it is a big issue because there are a number of schools out there that a lot of their financials rely on the tuition dollars that come in. So the larger institutions like MIT are research institutions, so we have different avenues of revenue that are coming in. But some of the smaller schools, I mean, we've seen it here. The northeast has an abundance of schools, but we've seen consolidation in that and them merging in with other universities just even in the last couple of years. And we continue to see that on some of the smaller ones.
It's unfortunate. Again, the discussions on that are happening at a different level than mine, but I look at the school that I went to for undergraduate, which I will not name here, but I didn't think they'd be around today. They were small. It was an all-women’s college at the time that I went to. And they have reinvented themselves. They are one of the premier nursing schools in the area now, and they still give a liberal arts education, but had they not done that, they probably wouldn't be in existence today.
They also went co-ed, and so they sort of brought in a different stream. But I think that the smaller schools need to think, how do we redefine ourselves.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: I think you're right. I absolutely agree with that, because I also went to a small school as well, a liberal arts school. And it's true. If you don't develop a focus and a sense of purpose that is distinctive, maybe even niche in the marketplace for education, then you're going to have a challenge probably surviving in the next coming years, because of just the change in societal desire for education at a higher level.
And whether we're talking about technical school or vocational, whatever method of format that people are going about to seek, really, their professional careers in life. So I think that that's really important. I appreciate your perspective.
SANDY MITCHELL: I worry about the smaller liberal arts colleges going away, because I feel like kids are being forced at the age of 16 to decide what they want to do with their lives and pick the school accordingly. And I had no clue. I had no clue at, probably, 30 what would still wanted to do. And so I'm glad that my school still gives a liberal arts education while specializing in offering a specialization, which allowed them to survive.
But I still hope we have the balance between the two because some people know that they want to be in STEM, but not everyone does. And the liberal arts gives them that base to use as a jumping point to move on to what they want. I mean, part of college used to be about figuring out what you want to do and who you want to be. And now, they've pushed it back that you're supposed to decide that before you go into college.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Do you think that there's anything or does MIT even do this already. Because I know some schools have tried. Is there anything that we can proactively do to try to get to kids at an earlier age, maybe even middle school to high school or earlier high school to say, hey, here is a different perspective on a discipline that is becoming extremely popular in higher education, such as risk management. Do you think that there's a way or a method that's maybe a success for, getting to kids a little earlier to help them? Because they are making these decisions at a fairly young age when they don't know exactly what they want to do.
SANDY MITCHELL: Well, I was thinking to this earlier when we were talking, it's amazing how many schools have a specialization in risk management now, and that was not around when I was going to school. And so we've seen that. I think BU has a master's degree in risk management and stuff like that. So that's great to see, so people are being exposed to it.
I read about some of these kids that have been exposed to, whether it's through the Spencer Foundation, that they learn because there were courses offered at school and they liked it, that's how they got involved in it. So we're-- see that more often. MIT doesn't have a specialization in that, but yes, we do a lot at the middle school and the high school level. And it's more in the STEM area to give opportunities to not just the local kids. We bring in kids from all over the world sometimes, just to expose them to different things.
And think a lot of schools across the country and probably internationally are doing that, providing those resources to the kids coming up. It just depends on what the specialty is in. But yeah, risk management is seen. I mean, it was a finance elective, but I taught a risk management course at the local colleges for a number of years here.
And most of these kids came in. One kid said, he was honest, it fit in my schedule. And that's OK. I took classes like that because it fit in my schedule. And at the end of the year, I made them do a presentation, rather than a paper because I felt it was important for students to get used to presenting. And one of the guys came up to me after and he said, I'm glad you made us do that, because he did a presentation. He was a part-time student.
He had gone to the shipping department in his company and learned all about the shipping and transportation part of it and did a presentation on it. And he's like, I learned about something new about my company that I never would have been exposed to. And that was great to see that it broadened his horizon, but it was just neat to teach and give them the exposure that this is a field out there and whether any of these kids ended up in risk management, I'm not sure, but it was nice to be able to expose them to it.
Because even if they're in a finance job or otherwise, they could end up at a company that they're in charge of risk management, depending on where they're at. So it's nice that schools have recognized that.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Well, you never know. He may actually hear this podcast and be happy that fit with his Tuesday, Thursday schedule.
SANDY MITCHELL: That was a long time ago, and I still remember that. It just made me happy that, when you teach, you feel if I get through one student, it's been a successful semester. And I got through to one that semester, and so I was OK.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Yeah, I've been an adjunct professor before too, so I can tell you you're absolutely right. Well, Sandy, I just want to say a hearty thank you to you for your time, your effort, your energy, your insight, and your wisdom in this area and helping us to reach others. And give them some perspective on what it means to be a risk manager for, again, such a obviously world-renowned institution as MIT. Thank you so much.
SANDY MITCHELL: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: For our listeners out there, I hope that you've enjoyed what you've heard. Please take a moment to take any notes and apply this to your own personal life professionally, to your career, just to be able to help you move forward and progress. We hope that you found it a value, and we appreciate your time for listening.
This again, is Twane Duckworth and Sandy Mitchell from MIT. We appreciate you listening to our Women in Risk and Education series and hope that you have a wonderful day. Thank you.
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