Women in risk and education: The University of Chicago

So skip the line at the bookstore. Forget the add/drop deadline. Just appreciate an informative podcast, insightful thought articles or brief newsletters to help round out your degree from the U of Risk. Today, we're launching a series of episodes we're calling WIRE, Women In Risk in Education. So welcome to the U of Risk, and welcome to our first series, WIRE. Wherever you're at in your career - as a freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, grad student, postdoc, or an existing professional in the industry, we hope that you'll find some fresh and compelling insights.

For this episode, we're offering a conversation recorded recently with Courtney Davis Curtis, the Assistant Vice President for Risk Management and Resilience Planning at the University of Chicago, where she provides leadership and direction to senior managers working to identify, evaluate and plan strategies for the enterprise-wide insurance programs. WTW first published this conversation during Black History Month and we are very proud to present it as our first WIRE episode. So for our women in risk and education, let's get to it.

Well, welcome. Thank you. Appreciate you showing up today, Courtney. This is going to be a fantastic conversation regarding some of the opportunities, I think, are important for people to as it relates to women and risk and education. And that's why I've titled this WIRE, women in risk in education. And I'm so glad that you are participating in this effort so that we can identify some of the things that are special about higher education, particularly from a woman's perspective as a risk manager for a phenomenal university.

And I'm excited to hear what you have to say about some of the things that we're going to discuss today. So I want to give you just a quick moment to introduce yourself officially. And if you wouldn't mind, describe your background as a risk manager, particularly as it relates to the higher education space.

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: Absolutely. My name is Courtney Davis Curtis. I'm currently the Assistant Vice President for Risk Management and Resilience Planning at the University of Chicago. I have been at this institution coming up on nine years this May. And I've been a long-time individual who's dedicated her career and profession to education, insurance and risk management. Actually, starting off in the brokerage world.

So prior to joining the university, I was an insurance broker for two large organizations and different capacity. One in a production role and the other in a placement role, which really created a nice foundation as I was already an adjunct extension of my client's institution. And now, I've been at the University of Chicago for a while. So I'm fortunate in that case to have a network that I've built mainly through URMIA, the University of Risk Management and Insurance Association, that I've been connected to, and have the resources from my peers, from the affiliate members to tap into.

So it shortened my learning curve, if you will. But that doesn't mean that as a woman that things were just easy because I had a network. There's certainly challenges that I have faced just due to the prevalence of women typically being a minority. I think in the education space, but also certainly in the insurance realm as well. 

TWANE DUCKWORTH: You mentioned something that I think is important for our listeners to understand, and that is that, quite frankly, there's a dynamic in every professional discipline where it comes to certain elements of breaking certain ceilings and certain stereotypes or things that you have to get past when it comes to developing your particular brand in that market space. So talk about that for just another moment as a woman coming in and doing risk management for the University of Chicago and to say, I mean, obviously a leading preeminent institution in the United States. I'm certain it was not easy obtaining the role in the first place, but also, just being that you are coming in, you're trying to develop your own brand in that space. And as a woman and as a Black woman, can you relate any stories as it relates to that?

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for most of my career and though maybe 16, 17 years into it now, I can still say that in many rooms that I'm in, whether it's here or meeting with insurers, whatever the case may be, I'm often-- not always, but often either the only woman, only person of color or the youngest in the room. So there was a lot that I think-- and whether it was just to myself or in general that I had to overcome to really show myself as an expert, as a technician, and that had to be part of my brand, that I had to be knowledgeable about what it was that I was talking about.

And in some instances, it's about getting a seat at the table. And once that seat at the table was earned, then it was really important that I got involved to create the opportunity to play more in that room or space that I'm in. If you talk to many people in higher education, in particular, we have a meeting, and we have a meeting about the meeting we have. So you get into this decision paralysis.

But there are so many meetings where important discussions are having or being had that you want to be in that room. Because as a risk manager, one shape, way or form, it is going to impact what we do. And so, again, it was important that I got myself into those rooms, and then really became a key stakeholder. So sometimes that's like, let me staff the committee, just let me in the space. And then I can take a more active role, if you will.

One beautiful thing I will say that it's interesting in the space that I'm in, because while there's the higher ed institution, I'm here, I'm also got insurance responsibilities for the medical center. And these are some of my most favorite meetings that I go to when we meet with our insurers because it's a group of all women. And when I tell you it's dynamic and it's a powerhouse, it is recognized, and it is mentioned because I have so much respect for these women in their individual craft.

So the women who are my counterparts at the medical center, who do the legal aspect of managing professional liability claims, two or three rock star women who help us in that element of sharing and selling our organization and our best practices in that space, that they are expert in that field of legal plus in the health care space. Then the individuals who are dealing with the risk management from a patient safety perspective, two powerhouse women there.

And we are a group of all women who are at these meetings with insurers. And I think it is dynamic. Not to say that if there was men there, it wouldn't be any different. But the fact that we are all women, I think is just remarkable. And it's not just about us being here at this institution. That's rare in any industry. And I think we always have a good story to tell because we are all experts and technicians in that, too.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: I love the way you described and led into your response in this answer to this question. Because honestly, it's quite similar to my experience in transitioning into risk management. I started out in this field as an attorney. And when I became the risk manager for the city of Jacksonville, I was the youngest risk manager in the history at the time. I was the first Black risk manager for the city of Jacksonville.

And I also felt that the similar aspects of concerns in trying to establish and, quite frankly, qualify myself when I would be in the room and dealing with some of the counterparts. So the reason why I'm interested because from a woman's perspective, you also mentioned those similar concerns. But, obviously, there's an additional layer because, obviously, as being a woman, there's some more challenges that you have to overcome versus being a man, a male. So you mentioned also your background, and pedigree, and designations. What kind of educational designations or certifications did you go to obtain in order to establish yourself?

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: So I started my career right out of college. And because I had time and capacity, I actually pursued my ARM, my associate risk management very early in my career. And I thought that would add to my credibility as a younger producer having some of the alphabet soup, if you will, after my name. And then right before leaving the brokerage world, I had started on getting my CPCU, my chartered property and casualty underwriting designation. And I finished that while I was at the University of Chicago.

And then a few years later before it went away, I also have my ARME. So the ERM track of the ARM, which is no longer out there, but I did receive that designation because I started to do some work in that space. And again, to add to the credibility and really because I am dedicated to the advancing of insurance and risk management in this space. I thought that I have to ever educate myself.

My undergrad happens to be in marketing with really a focus in sales, which is why I went in that production route early on. And now, I'm getting my MBA at Chicago Booth, the executive program. And this is that same concept in mind. When you're here at an educational institution to really make it to the next level, if you will, you have to have an advanced degree.

And I think that my undergrad was at Northern Illinois, an amazing business school. But I wanted to get to another level of having a degree in business at an institution that was at the top so that people, again, still appreciate where I went the time and effort that I put into it. And plus, I don't want my education or background to ever be the reason why I'm not considered for a position. And this was just the right time in life after having a child, et cetera, that I can invest in myself again. And so that's what I'm doing to really reach that next level.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: Wonderful I appreciate that. I've heard a lot of people say that sometimes if you don't have the credentials when the opportunity presents itself, then it's not really an opportunity. And if you're not ready for the opportunity, then it doesn't exist. So I'm glad that you reiterated the importance and the pedigree that you have so that people can appreciate why you're capable of doing what you're doing, how it happens. So other than having more degrees on the thermometer, what would you recommend and what do you think is needed, if you would, to reinforce risk management as a discipline in the community of color?

Because I know that a number of people, such as myself, have several degrees as well. I had no idea what risk management was. Before, I was asked about risk management directly. So what do you think is probably needed in the communities of color to reinforce the idea of the discipline of risk management.

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: If you would have asked me this a few years ago, I would have said, we've got to get out to the colleges and universities that have risk management programs. The challenge in just doing that as a strategy is those people have already sparked an interest in this field because they're at an institution and they are specifying whether it's an actual degree or if it's a focus in insurance and risk management. It's still important to get out there.

Actually, I was just at Mississippi State University doing risk manager on the campus that was sponsored by the Spencer Education Foundation. And that's critical and important because they need to see people like me in this space and to not only hear about risk management, but to hear about insurance, brokerage, underwriting, et cetera, about all the ways you can go in this industry.

But if we want to see more people of color, we have to get to the high schools while students are still really trying to appreciate what opportunity is out there and think about it from a business perspective and not what they may just from a personal line. So not to say that that's not an option, but there's really a lot of ways and avenues you can go. Many people in this industry who I've met over my career didn't wake up and say, I want to be a risk manager, or I want to be an insurance professional, unless they knew someone already.

And so people don't know about it, then it's our duty to get out there and to show them, that this is a viable opportunity. But it doesn't start or end at the college level. I really think it's important that we get out to those career days, if you will, or other opportunities like that junior achievement. I know organizations are investing in. So people can appreciate this as a real viable industry that some may say is recession-proof. That has been around for years. It's taken me to go across the world to meet with markets, and insurers, and so on.

But I'm geeky about it. But hopefully, they can appreciate the complexities and how every single day is different and all the different types of people, and risk, and challenges that you face. It's never dull. I can at least promise that. And they can truly find a career that's not limited. Since you've got so many options away, you can go about it.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: Well, I love that response because I wholeheartedly agree. I've spoken on this topic personally before. And I say the same thing. If you're talking to people and they've gone to college, they've already had their minds made up. They've already been watching the TV shows.

That's what happened to me. I grew up watching the legal shows and in between. My Cousin Vinny and a few good men, I just knew I was going to go to law school and put people in jail and do all of the cool stuff. And then after nine years of practicing, I said I'm not interested in doing this anymore. And I ended up switching over to risk management.

So I agree with you. It's like you got to catch them while they're still some more formal appreciation of what I'm going to do with my life thought process going on. And I think you're hitting the nail on the head. If we're going to do so, we definitely have to start before the people are getting to their post-secondary education.

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: And there's something I want to add. And this is something I've heard and received questions on when I was speaking down at Mississippi State is, I think some people are afraid of sales and think the only way you can get in the insurance or risk profession is if you are a salesperson. The word sales or commission, it tends to terrify people. They're thinking that's the only way that they can make money.

And in risk management, obviously, I'm not directly a salesperson. But I hope people who are exploring this industry or really anyone appreciate that we are selling ourselves or something every single day. And although you may not think of yourself as a marketing person or someone who can speak well, there is a way that the act of persuasion is necessary and whatever it is that you do. And so I don't want people to shy away from this industry and certainly not risk management for that concern, negotiating and persuading.

I'm sure that's partially what attracted you to take the legal route. But think that people should open their sphere and mindset to a broader way of looking at it, the same way I say everyone's a risk manager. Everyone's a salesperson or something. I mean, you convinced your mom or your dad or something that you wanted to go out that night, whatever the case may be. And you can translate that with practice. And you may not even realize what you're doing. But that shouldn't deter anyone away from this industry, especially in that risk management.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: Agreed. I agree. And it's funny also that you mentioned about being able to find risk management insurance fun, too. I love it. There's no day that's the same. And I needed that because I get bored very, very easy. And I tell you, for any of our listeners or anybody that's been in this industry for a while, I'm certain you can attest that there is no two days that are alike, literally. It's just not possible.

Because we're dealing with people, life situations, anticipated ones. And those that are unanticipated. So you're certain to engage in a number of activities on any given day that were not on your calendar, which any risk professional can tell you. But having said that, it does expose you to some very unique opportunities, I believe, beyond most disciplines, quite frankly, because you don't know what you're going to be doing in a day.

For example, I'll never forget that one of my first experiences in London, I was at Lloyd's. And because we were buying so much insurance, this was one of the places where we go to purchase our insurance. And I'll never forget my first trip there. And I looked. And if you're in Lloyd's, they have this document, if you will. But it's like a book. It's a ledger showing the various losses that were going on.

Now, unbeknownst to me, Courtney, I didn't realize that this changed on a regular basis. So I tried to play it really, really cool when I went there. And then just happened to be the day that the Titanic sank. And they had shown the various-- it was showing the losses. And the people who were signing off on the various slip lines for their payments on the losses to the Titanic. Now, again, I played it cool. I didn't take any pictures. I didn't do anything. I did not realize that they changed that book page on a regular basis.

So the next day I came back after I got over being cool. And I was like, I'm going to take a picture. And it was gone. I didn't see it anymore. I was so upset. But that was a unique experience for me. Do you have any unique experiences that you've had where you're like, you know what? That was cool. I would have never had that chance to experience that. Had I not been in risk management, or in insurance, or anything like that in your background from a professional standpoint?

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: Honestly, there's a number of them. A lot of them do have to do with travel. I went to Germany. I've been to London multiple times almost annually. I've been to the Cayman Islands. And this is all relative to the fact that these are where the markets are and where I need to go and meet them directly.

So I think the travel is certainly a component of it. But it's not just where you go internationally. It's where I go in the U.S. because of conferences that I go to that certain associations are real diligent about getting you to different parts of the United States to meet and experience things. But I've also been to so many colleges, and universities, campuses that I would have never been to otherwise.

I've been on fields that have been under construction. I've been at the center of the field at Ohio State. And I dotted the I there pretending to be at least because that was one of my clients at the time. I've been in the areas of locker rooms at stadiums. I've been in the room as a goodwill hunting at Princeton's Camp-- I mean like you see things on TV that you don't think you'll get to experience in real life. But you're also looking at it from a different lens, too.

So it just gives me an appreciation of how every campus is different, every country is different. Every person you interact with is different, too. A lot of it is also it's the places and the things you experience. But it's the people you meet, too. People I've known my entire career who've watched me grow up, who I've looked up to that were now peers and like we know about seeing their kids when they're younger.

And now, they're going off to college. And like, hey, I'm coming to visit your campus because my son or daughter is going. And I mean, that's real-life experience to be invested in the industry, but being invested in the people and being invested in the future. So it always keeps things exciting. But it's usually the people and the places that I've been able to go through because of the industry. There was one more. There's one more.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: Go ahead. I knew it was one. It's always one. You never forget. There it is.

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: There's one you never forget. And it is a proud moment for myself. And that was when I was at home, and I had applied to be risk manager of the year. The RIMS award. And we submitted. It's a long application process, let me tell you.

And the broker who I was working with who had nominated me and we were going through this process. And I was packing up to get ready because we're going on vacation. And he calls me. And he's like, you won. I was like, we got to the next round. He's like, no, you won.

And I was just so shocked. And of course, you apply because you want to get it. But to hear I won. And I was at home with my daughter because we were getting ready to go to the trip. And I'm running around my house. And she's running around with me like, what? She has no idea what we're talking about. But that's an experience that I'll look back on.

I've worked on captive projects. I threw in a name with it that has something to do with my daughter. So now that legacy is going to sit out there. So it's just cool personal moments that when you can tie your professional, with your personal, it makes it all that much better.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: I love that. That is wonderful. Well, you know what? Before we start to wind down here, just do me a favor. Let's just pretend that we are at a city high school. We've got that opportunity. And this is an Inner City High School. You have an opportunity to speak to the student body. What one or two things of advice might you give to them about this profession, exploring it as far as this risk management or even others? Because you have a dynamic background. But what kind of advice would you provide to them, so that they can be aware of what's out there beyond, again, seeing what's most popular on TV, which used to always be doctor, lawyer, and that was it?

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: I would say to get out and experience it. It's the don't knock it till you try. And the only way to do it is to explore it, to make the phone calls, to get the opportunities to shadow someone or in between your sophomore or junior year. Get and go for the internship.

Listen and hear what people talk about. It's very rare that I ever hear someone leave the industry as a whole. So if you are looking for something to provide a different lifestyle, to show you other things you may have not seen before, but you want to dedicate your life to and have some confidence or level to know that there will always be an opportunity around, do it. But as you do it, don't forget any individual or any encounter, and make sure you put your best foot forward.

Because it is a big industry, but small at the same time. You yourself become the brand that follows you, that creates the opportunity. So be very intentional about how you bring yourself to this space. But just be open to take a leap of faith and just do something new.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: So I'm going to add to that for any of our students who end up listening to this in the high school room because I've had high schoolers. And say that remember that everything follows you, every post, everything you do ultimately follows you. So take Courtney's advice from that standpoint. But as well, remember that this is a part of your building of yourself as a brand and something that you pointed out, Courtney.

And one of the reasons why distracted me from being practicing law coming from a prestigious law school. I went to Georgetown for law school. A lot of great connections, a really good time. But I just realized it was not something that I wanted to do to the end of my professional career. And what I liked about this risk management side was I saw people who were well into their 60s, 70s, even 80s still practicing the discipline of risk management. And not only were they doing it, they were having fun. They were laughing, they looked excited. And I got to tell you that most of my counterparts on the legal side of the fence, they did not look that way.

It looked like they were just tired.

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: They were still paying off those loans.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: So I was really excited about what you said because this is one of those disciplines that I believe you can do well until any of your golden retirement years, if you choose to, and still be valued. Because a lot of it is about how you think. It's about being able to help people navigate and minimize, obviously, some of their concerns about risk. So what that did for me was provided me with a bevy, a quite frankly, a huge pool of people that I could consider as role models that also inspired me.

In fact, one of my role models, she's been doing this for I think this is her 44th year. And I love talking to her because there is almost no situation that she can't go, "Twane, here's how you might want to handle that. Here's what I would do." Do you have any role models like that in your career and your professional life, particularly any that you want to acknowledge, especially?

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: There are so many. And they're all in different roles, capacities, different companies. I have people who I work with, that group of women who I mentioned to you who are collectively my sheroes that I just look to my aspirational. There's people who I've encountered who have been my managers at times or others in the brokerage world that I still call to this day for personal and professional advice.

I was just on the phone with one a couple of weeks ago. Those are people I rely on. But it's also some of the colleagues who I've met over the years, who I feel are still invested in me personally, no matter what I'm going through or transitions I'm considering to make. It's those people, too. I also have someone who I've looked up to tremendously who we navigated the COVID-19 pandemic together.

And I raised my hand into, I've always wanted to work with her. And it was the first time that I learned something that was not insurance or risk management-related that open my eyes to a new realm of my own skill sets and capabilities that I'm tapping into more and more. But I have so many people throughout the brokerage world or peer institutions that I'm thankful to be able to text or call. And they will pick up the phone.

It's not just the stuff I'm dealing with here, it's career. And so I'm just thankful that I have a number of people who I can reach out to. And there's even been people who work for me that while they may have worked, I used them, too. My colleagues here. I mean, the list just goes on. I'm not a kid. But it does take a village.

And you need people to tell you, no, you're crazy. You don't need a whole bunch of people. You need people to tell you to take that risk or take that chance. You need people to tell you that avoid this pitfall. So there's many people and really too many to name. But I'm forever grateful. Along with my support system, my family, too, obviously.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: I'm so glad to hear that. And I think it speaks volumes to the success that you've had as a youngster in this career like I am.

Because invariably, you don't really get too far without the benefit of learning from other individuals. And if you're not teachable and you're not coachable, then you can certainly find yourself out of the game much earlier, or basically facing harder challenges. So as a final question, I just want to get out there for our audience today. Are there any important trends that you see in the industry that are going on from Courtney's perspective that you think I hope we find a way to address this particular matter? Anything that's you've thought about just as a preeminent risk manager in the field of higher education, any thoughts that you want to throw out in closing?

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: Yes. So this is interesting. And it's an election year. So things always get interesting in an election year, particularly for those of us in higher ed who are anticipating, a number of potential regulatory changes that come about depending on what happens in the administration. And so I remember a few years ago, we were -- not 'we' as in my institution – I'm saying this in general, you had Title IX claims. And then you start to see reverse Title IX claims. I think the new emerging trend is about this area of DEIB where institutions and corporations beyond higher ed are putting in these programs with the intent of making the organization more inclusive or more reflective of the community or the world that we exist in.

And now, we see a similar effect of that reverse issue coming into play. That's putting an attack on an area that was really started for a good reason. And I think we should just all think about it's happening in the admissions perspective. It's happening with college presidents. And so where do we strike this right balance?

It's a risk issue. It's a legal issue. It's a political issue. So I think everyone should just step back and think about what we can do as individuals and as a whole to really make sure the intent behind is still seen and still lives through, or at least that we take the actions as individuals that we can to still build that community that reflects the world.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: That is extremely insightful. And we're going to have to catch up a lot about that last part offline. Number one, because I want to be respectful of your time and our audience's attention span, quite frankly. Because most of us don't make it past 25, 30 minutes of anything these days. We got to run off to the next thing. So I'm just so excited about being able to participate with us for our women in risk and education.

You are a part of our live WIRE. I am excited about that. Thank you so much, Courtney, for your time and your contribution to this effort. I look forward to connecting with you further. And for those of you all, again, who are listening to this podcast, please, by all means, share this with any of the people that you know. We are excited about communicating these types of thought process, leadership, personal and professional development to the community at large from an insurance standpoint, risk management standpoint.

And to those who are becoming behind, share this with those who are also as well, looking to find a career path for themselves. Because people like Courtney are what make this institutional discipline great. And we're excited to see it move forward. So, Courtney, thank you so very much.

COURTNEY DAVIS CURTIS: Thank you for having me.

TWANE DUCKWORTH: And thank you, listeners, for joining us for this episode of WIRE, women in risk in education and for the launch of WTW's U of Risk. We know that you understand the value of education. And we're happy to have contributed a little bit to your education. We look forward to you joining us next time.

SPEAKER: Thank you for joining us for this WTW podcast, featuring the latest thinking on the intersection of people, capital, and risk. WTW hopes you found the general information provided in this podcast informative and helpful. The information contained herein is not intended to constitute legal or other professional advice and should not be relied upon in lieu of consultation with your own legal advisors. In the event, you would like more information regarding your insurance coverage, please do not hesitate to reach out to us. In North America. WTW offers insurance products through licensed entities, including Willis Towers, Watson, Northeast Incorporated in the United States and Willis Canada, Incorporated in Canada.