VOICEOVER: Welcome to WTW's U of Risk podcast series. Your campus for all things risk and insurance in the public sector and education.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of WTW's U of Risk, our WIRE series. This is our Women in Risk in Education, formatted for your listening pleasure to make sure that you can get the dynamic perspective of some of the most preeminent female risk managers in the United States as a part of our colleges and universities and higher academic educational centers of excellence.
I have a distinct pleasure of having with me today, Sam McClelland from George Mason University. I'm so excited about what she's going to be able to share from her personal experience and background, to be able to give her perspective on the things that you want to be aware of as a risk manager for a higher education institution, and some of her ideas and concepts about what makes for success in this business. Sam, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. I really do appreciate it.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Well, thank you for having me, Twane. I've been looking forward to talking to you about risk management. And hope today goes well for both of us.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: I'm sure it absolutely will. We always like to have a little fun on this. We like to keep it very relaxed and open. So let's just start with some of the basics. If you don't mind, just please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your school.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Well, again, I'm Samantha McClelland from George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. I've been with the university now about 24 years. George Mason is one of the state institutions in the Commonwealth of Virginia. We actually have our biggest enrollment right now at 47,000 students at George Mason. That's on and off campus.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Impressive
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yeah.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Wow. That's a lot of people.
SAM MCCLELLAND: A lot of people.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So, if you don't mind, tell us specifically, what's your title and your role in risk management at Mason.
SAM MCCLELLAND: I'm currently the director. I'm the newly appointed director as of this year. I have been working in risk management for 17 years of the 24 years at Mason. My predecessor retired, and I said, OK, I think I might be ready to do this. So, I became the director back in, like I said, January of this year. And it's been a whirlwind of different experiences, things that I had not delved into before. But being the director has been also enlightening as a leader.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: That's very interesting. And that dovetails quite perfectly. Basically, when you think about the fact that so many people get into certain professions, and even particular in our industry, and they want to go from, I just started to being the risk manager, and you just indicated that there was some time in that evolution for your professional path. What was your roles prior to becoming the risk manager for Mason?
SAM MCCLELLAND: The first year I started in student services.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So, I did programming for Diversity Programs and Services. Just the programming for all of the student population, whether it's Black History Month, Latino, Hispanic Heritage Month, Native American Month at that time. So, I did a lot of programming with the students. I had direct contact with the students, and they relied on me. I was the mama figure. They would come in the office, and I'd feed them and have conversation and things like that.
As I got a little older, that late night planning for student services, I said, let me leave that to the young folks. Let me look into something different. So, I started in risk management after being in student services for about seven years. And I was the risk control manager. So, I did all the claims. I dealt with the claims and managing the staff. So that was my day to day.
So once becoming the director, I learned that managing staff is quite different than being in that leadership position. I am more apt to taking care of them as people and leading them in the right direction. So that's been my journey. Student services, risk control manager, handling just day-to-day claims, and things like that. Now being that leader for a group of professionals in risk management.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Do you believe that continual evolution in your participation in the risk management of the school has made you or impacted you in any way as a risk manager now and director of risk management? And if so, how so?
SAM MCCLELLAND: It has impacted me. Like I said, I took for granted my director at the time that she had all of these things she was juggling and still trying to be a leader. Right? I just said leave it up to her. She has it. I did my part, and I left everything else. I didn't think about the weight that was on her shoulders.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Gotcha.
SAM MCCLELLAND: And so I sat in that chair.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Never until you walk in someone else's shoes.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Exactly, exactly.
[LAUGHTER]
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Now, can you describe for me the composition of your office in terms of how many staff do you have within risk management. 'Cause you just mentioned, you have a large format, an expansive portfolio of concerns exposures. What is the structure of your organization's risk management office look like?
SAM MCCLELLAND: Well, let's start from when I started in risk management. I came in and there was the director. And she had hired me. I was the first full-time person that she hired to work with her. She was a risk-- a solo risk manager. So, I came in as a full-time risk control manager to do the claims. After that, we saw we actually needed an administrative support person. So, we hired another full-time person at that time. So, it was an office of three.
As the university grew-- because we are a fairly young institution. As the university grew and things happened around the world, different things impacting 9/11 and how that started to impact that DC area.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Correct, correct.
SAM MCCLELLAND: We needed someone just to handle claims while I started handling other things for the university as med mal, and student travel, and risk assessments, and things like that. So we hired a claims examiner.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So claims examiner, administrative support person, myself, and then the director. Then we saw that as the university continued to grow, we needed like another part-time admin person. Because things were just coming at us and we couldn't--
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Volume-wise, it was impossible to keep up with.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So now we currently have-- I have a risk control manager, it's the young man that took my place. I still have my claims examiner. And because of how things work out in university, in money and budgets get cut, I lost my administrative support altogether.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Wow.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So, I don't have an administrative support person anymore.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So, what kind of advice would you give to some of your counterparts and peers who sometimes-- I talk to other schools, they're struggling with the size of their staff and keeping up with their volume. You've obviously dealt with it on a very personal level.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yes.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: What sort of-- if you can think of any tips or advice would you provide to your counterparts at other schools who are that solo-person risk management office, or maybe one person, no support staff.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Right.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: What would you give them?
SAM MCCLELLAND: All you can do is what you can do.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Maintain, but don't burn out. Collectively with the team that I have, we check in on each other regularly. I check in on them regularly because I don't want a burnt-out staff.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Sure.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So, we do what we can do. If there's some hot button items that's going on, we deal with that. And we put some things to the side. But it's important to always check-in.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Right.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Because it's easy, especially in risk management. And the way society is evolving,
and risk is-- it's a jump off at any given time. You need that personable feeling amongst your staff. And don't continue to throw things out-- if you have a staff, don't continue to throw things at them. Check-in, keep a balance, keep a healthy balance. And also, I get to the point where I check-in with them individually, even about what's going on at home. Because things are going on in our lives as well.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: True.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So, if someone's not doing well there, they're not going to do well for me in the office.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So, you recognized you're a leader of people, and not robots.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Exactly.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Wonderful. Well, that certainly helps. Especially, like you said, you have to humanize the reality of our situations. Our staff has challenges, can be personally and professionally. And you're doing it right now, I think it's a little bit of an emotional intelligence and leadership that you're demonstrating. So that's very well put. I think that, and you tell me if this is correct, I'm just assuming. But I would presume that there are also certain practical things like trying to-- I don't know. Did you all try to engage or develop risk owners around the school who weren't a part of risk management but like participated with safety? Things like templates for insurance documents, steps like that to minimize some of the administrative back and forth.
SAM MCCLELLAND: I have a dynamic young man that's working for me right now. His name is Marcus and he does-- he's fabulous. He understands risk, but this is his chosen career.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK.
SAM MCCLELLAND: He's a young man, late 30s maybe. But he's on fire for risk management. And him and I have sat down, and we talked about implementing just that, teaching other risk owners around the university, how to manage the risk. So, everything doesn't always have to come to us to resolve. Giving them the steps and tools that they need.
So, we are developing-- he's actually going to start going around and actually talking to folks and educating them on risk in their own particular units. We have a documentation for them to fill out as well.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Sure.
SAM MCCLELLAND: But that's what we're implementing now under my administration as a risk director.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: That's interesting because I think that's important because so many people are facing that challenge as I talk to more schools. They're asking me, like Twane, one of the challenges we face is just resources. I mean, because risk management as a discipline, as well as a practical necessity, has become so expansive that there are so many times that the risk managers or risk management decision making has been brought into the strategic enterprise and thought process of the entire organization. And so, people are like, well, let's ask for risk management. Well, there's only so much time in the day where you can respond--
SAM MCCLELLAND: Exactly, exactly.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: --to everything that's going on. And you said, 46,000--
SAM MCCLELLAND: 47,000.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: 47,000 students. And how many campuses?
SAM MCCLELLAND: We have 1, 2, 3 campuses in the States, and we have a campus in Korea as well.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So, you're not busy. You don't have anything going on.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Of course not. Absolutely not. But we're doing a road show and that's what we're naming it, the road show. We're taking it down the road.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: All right. I love it. I love it. So, what kind of things bother you? What kind of top concerns would you say, things that keep you up, top of mind when it comes to what you see on the horizon for risk in higher ed?
SAM MCCLELLAND: Let's see. I was thinking about this question. And I would say the hot topic for most risk managers right now is AI. And trying to wrap our heads around how that is going to impact us as an institution. We just recently hired a VP for AI. And I'm looking forward to see what she brings to the table for George Mason University.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So let me be clear. You just said you hired a VP for AI, specifically--
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yes, specifically for AI.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Interesting.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So, yeah. So, I'm interested to see what she's going to implement. What does that mean?
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Correct.
SAM MCCLELLAND: When you get such a position, what do you do? We have our IT team, and we've developed some regulations around AI, the do's and dont's for some students and our faculty and things like that. But how is she going to advance that for us?
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Because we do have concerns about students being honest in their efforts in submitting documents, papers, and things like that. How much of it can our faculty use without it not being originally them. Although it's a benefit because as I look toward helping risk management utilize AI, it's beneficial. Because you can do all these trend analysis in an instant, where we had to do all that manual work before looking through our claims data history and things like that. So, there's some benefits, some great benefits to it. And then there are the not-so-great benefits for--
TWANE DUCKWORTH: The double-edged component of advancements in technology. Because that's what happens, right? All the advancements usually come with an up and down.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Right. So, I'm wondering what this new person is going to bring that will enlighten us as a university, help us as a university, and limit our liability.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK, good to know. Anything else you'd like to talk about that's just like, not sure how this is going to work out in the future?
SAM MCCLELLAND: What keeps me up, for me, it keeps me up at night is because I'm a new director of risk management is just making the right decisions on a daily basis. It literally keeps me up at night. Like, did I give them the right guidance? Did I-- am I going to make sure the university is not hanging out there? Or thinking about new ways in which to implement something new to keep us safe.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Right.
SAM MCCLELLAND: And I'm sure that's going to mellow out for me in a few years as I get this seat-- get comfortable in the seat. But those are the things I think about. Have I done the right thing?
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Right. First of all, I appreciate you sharing that and the vulnerability with our listeners. Because I think it's important for other people to recognize that this is not an easy discipline. And a lot of respects you are making what are educated, but still guesses, about what and how you should handle a situation. Not to be certain, sometimes there's some absolute rights and wrongs. But at the end of the day, a lot of what we do is so strategic in nature and can be philosophically debated back and forth that you're doing the best that you can with the information provided to you.
And I do underscore that the information provided to you at the time, and that doesn't mean it's going to be the same tomorrow. So, I mean, I was a risk manager for multiple cities for over a dozen years. And so, I can tell you that you're right. Sometimes, so I'm going to tell you, it doesn't necessarily always go away. What are you going to get is a new situation. I promise you. Just as you get comfortable, there's going to be a new dynamic that shows up where you're just not as certain if you gave was the best one.
SAM MCCLELLAND: I'm always thinking outside the box trying to find a better way to do something or that specific way. It has become tiring but intriguing for me as well. The larger things, those emergency type things, I can handle it. I can get in there and do the things I have been taught to do. I have my former profession. I was a police officer. So that plays into me being-- for me, I think being a risk manager as well. So, the emergency things, I jump on it. So, it's those little things.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Sorry. You're not holding my time. I'm like, wait, pause, timeout. Wait, hold up, shut the front door. Wait a second. I didn't know about Sam, the police officer, so talk to me about this. How long were you in law enforcement?
SAM MCCLELLAND: I was a police officer in Newark, New Jersey, for three years. And in my younger days--
TWANE DUCKWORTH: You said Newark.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Newark, New Jersey.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: So, this wasn't a one-stop sign town.
SAM MCCLELLAND: No.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: You've been out there on the streets.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yes, yes. Gun toting, I was.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: And very impressive.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yeah. So, it did set me up for this career.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: How do you feel like, if at all, that has impacted your perspective. Because, I mean, a lot of risk is dealing with safety.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yes.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Right. You happen to be in, obviously, the DC Metropolitan area. We all know that is obviously a persistent target of all kinds of activity.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Yes.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: You have terroristic concerns, all of that good stuff of that nature. So how does that impact your outlook on safety as a risk manager?
SAM MCCLELLAND: We're always keeping ourselves aware of what's happening in our area because we have political concerns as well--
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Sure.
SAM MCCLELLAND: --that keeps me wondering what's next. Even when the pandemic occurred, we were one of the leading universities trying to get a handle on the pandemic. Working in that Metropolitan area brings so many diverse risks because we have a population of people that come from all over.
Dealing with the international concerns that we've had recently. We had some unrest at campus. Nothing large happened on our campus, but we had some students that had a little unrest, so we had to prepare ourselves for that as well.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Sure.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Make sure our students were feeling as though they were being heard and taken care of, but also keeping everyone safe.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Right.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So, I understand that. I understand the safety of people, keeping our students safe, making sure folks have level heads. So having discussions with our students so they can have a voice. And that's a part of keeping them safe so they understand that we're in this area where we may be faced with adversity and things that may occur, but we don't always have to address it with anger.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Very well stated, very well stated. There's a lot of times where again, you all have very sensitive roles and positions to play. And when we have a geopolitical turmoil and a stage that's set, and again, you being particular where you're located right outside of DC, I got to imagine it's pretty challenging. So, I'm just impressed with the fact that you used to carry a gun and handcuffs. I had no idea. So, I'm going to be very careful with my last two questions that I ask because I don't want to--
SAM MCCLELLAND: Tread lightly.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Tread lightly. OK. All right. OK, here we go. Sam. Cop. OK.
One of the things that you just made me adjust my entire perspective on this dialogue is that you've seen humanity in some of the most base sense of the word in terms of being out there. I've done a lot of work with law enforcement as a former prosecutor in DC as well. So, I worked a lot with DC Metropolitan Police. What do you find to be the most challenging with balancing what you've seen out there in real life firsthand dealing with some of the most challenging people of society versus being in your professional role now and having to say, listen, not everyone's like that. They don't have all of these intentions and it's not exactly going to go that way. How do you find that a challenge to balance that sometimes?
SAM MCCLELLAND: I do find that challenge at times because I am a Black woman, raising a Black child, a male child at that. And I know what he's been faced with. I know the conversations that I have to have with him about leaving out or going into the world as a Black man. Those are real concerns for me in my culture. But I also, sitting in the seat that I'm in, working with students-- of diverse students all over, coming from everywhere, I try to empathize with people from where they come from or what they may have gone through or-- so listening a lot instead of putting my own personal beliefs or anything on anyone else. I listen to them. That's even with colleagues, not just students. I listen to people.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: OK.
SAM MCCLELLAND: I think that comes from my background in law enforcement. Everything is not always what it appears to be.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Very much so.
SAM MCCLELLAND: So that has been something that has helped me through life in general.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: I appreciate that. That's a very healthy perspective to maintain. And I think that brings a different level of value to your role as a risk manager. So, I'm excited to have learned that. And I'm certainly going to mess with you about that later now that I know it. And so do the listeners at this point. If they didn't know, now you know that Sam was the cop.
SAM MCCLELLAND: In every bit of my 5 feet tall self.
[LAUGHTER]
TWANE DUCKWORTH: All right. So, listen, I'm going to ask you this final question before we wrap up. Do you have any special advice you'd like to give to any of the upcoming people who are thinking about participating in risk management, particularly from a higher education standpoint. As a female, as a female risk manager, if that's your desire and goal, do you have any special advice you'd like to give?
SAM MCCLELLAND: I think I would like to say, as most risk managers that I've talked to over the years, coming into risk management, I didn't even understand what it was. What risk management did or anything like that. In the 17 years that I've been in risk management, it has grown leaps and bounds. I would like to have it be a part of more of a curriculum and a degree for people to earn because this is a career. I never thought this would be my career.
It is a wonderful field to be in. And for any young people coming up, I think extending or searching your mind about that-- because you get confused. I have a 37-year-old. He's like, I want to do this, I want to do that. I'm even introducing him into insurance and risk management right now. And he had no idea the depths of what risk management was all about. So I would say, look into it, ask some questions. If you have someone that says they're a risk manager, ask questions, find out what it's all about. It is a great field where you are always challenged.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Yes.
SAM MCCLELLAND: And you want to challenge yourself on a regular basis.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Right.
SAM MCCLELLAND: That's what life is about. And I would like to see, like I said, institutions have more of an educational component for risk management, not just a specialty place you go to and you get an ARM or you do this. I think it should be in every institution somewhere and teaching risk management as a career.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Gotcha.
SAM MCCLELLAND: Because it has been exciting for me. And I look forward to a few more years before I retire.
TWANE DUCKWORTH: Good deal. Good deal. Well, that is a very impressive background. I tip my hat to you. I tip my hat to you. Well, listen, you have been hanging out with Twane Duckworth and Sam "The Cop" McClelland, George Mason's risk manager. We're so excited. Thank you for participating with us.
We are certain that you got something out of this. I know that I did. This has been another episode of WTW's U of Risk WIRE series, our Women in Risk in Education. Thank you so much for joining us. Please have a wonderful day and come back and listen out for our next episode.
VOICEOVER: Thank you for joining us for this WTW podcast, featuring the latest thinking on the intersection of people, capital, and risk. WTW hopes you found the general information provided in this podcast informative and helpful. The information contained herein is not intended to constitute legal or other professional advice and should not be relied upon in lieu of consultation with your own legal advisors.
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