Wood-frame construction insurance market

RHONDA DEMENO: Welcome to The Senior Advisor podcast. My name is Rhonda DeMeno, WTW senior vice president of Risk Services for the North America senior living segment. Today's podcast is titled Senior Living and Builder's Risk.

Today's current environment for senior living communities’ construction projects provides considerable challenges. One of the biggest of those challenges is adequately insuring your new project and doing it at a competitive price.

Today's Senior Advisor podcast will discuss the current builder's risk insurance marketplace for senior living, with a focus on wood frame construction. Our guest will review the current state of the market and how we got here.

We'll also provide insight on how to create a best-in-class insurance pre-market submission and presenting that submission to prospective underwriters to achieve optimal results. Finally, our speakers will discuss the critical communication needed between your project to ensure its success.

And now I would like to introduce to you today's host. Wayne Wills is the WTW Senior Living industry segment leader. Welcome, Wayne.

WAYNE WILLS: Thank you so much, Rhonda. I tell you, I am thrilled to be hosting the podcast today. It's such a timely topic as we're in 2025 and the industry more than ever needs more construction in the senior living industry.

And we've got a couple true industry experts that I'm joined with today, so really look forward to the discussion. So joining me today, we've got Mike Pilla. Mike is the CEO of Rockstone Construction Risk Underwriters. Mike, would you mind introducing yourself?

MIKE PILLA: Thank you, Wayne. It's great to be here. And thank you Rhonda as well.

WAYNE WILLS: Fantastic. And also joining Mike and I is Zac Hernandez. Zac is our multifamily housing leader within the WTW construction industry vertical. Zac, can you introduce yourself, please?

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thanks, Wayne. Happy to be here.

WAYNE WILLS: Fabulous. So, just as Rhonda was saying earlier in the introduction, construction of new senior living facilities is a huge issue for 2025. The industry demand is very significant. I like to think that the market is slowly coming back in that realm as it relates to some interest rate reductions that we've had recently.

We're beginning to start seeing some meaningful construction taking place in 2025 to address the strong demand. But historically, some of the delay has been due to the high cost of builders risk insurance for the construction projects.

So we're going to get into driving factors for that, a little bit of the history that has factored in over the course of time. So I'll start setting the stage for the current builders risk marketplace. So a lot of that has been fueled by historic fire losses in this industry segment. So Zac, would you mind sharing us some of the backdrop that has set the course for where we are now?

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Yeah, absolutely. I think if you look at the last five years, it's no secret that construction costs have been going up across the board, whether that's interest rates or the price of lumber, labor, concrete. But one of the hot topics across the country right now is wood frame builders risk rates.

So if you look at the last five years, wood frame builders risk rates have gone up 110%, and I think it's vital to, to listeners and to developers to understand the bigger picture of why those rates have increased so much and what they can do to stand out in this space, right?

So I think if you look at the last five years alone, they've been over $1.5 billion in wood frame builders risk losses across the country. So it's broken out year by year. And there's obviously, some years that are worse than others, but fire is not a new concept that has just started to happen, right?

So I think Mike is going to share a good perspective on kind of the historic fire losses starting in the late '90s, and then maybe kind of how placements have been done, right? Where they used to be in a master property program and now they're being placed on a standalone project basis. But I think it's kind of important to hear from Mike's view on exactly the evolution of how these projects have been placed. So, Mike, do you want to share some of that perspective?

MIKE PILLA: Sure. Thank you, Zach. Thank you. So yeah, obviously, as you mentioned, there's been quite a number of fires over the last several years. But even going back to your point, going back into the '90s and the early 2000s, one of the things that really is significantly different than the fires that we talk about over the last five years is actually the value of those fires, right? The value of a project under construction.

I'll go back to the '70s and '80s, because I've been doing this since 1975. Back in the '70s, a big fire was $3 million, right? That would have been a big fire loss on an apartment complex or a senior living complex, right? And what Zac alluded to in the last five years, there were fires that were $70 million, $80 million, right? It's not uncommon to have four or five, $50 million fires in any given year, right?

So the real significant thing, I think, from my perspective, from the kind of '80s, '90s, all the way through to current times, is really the value of projects, right? And the size of projects, right? Years ago you didn't see a two story concrete podium with five or six stories of apartments on top that would have maybe 350 units in a single building, right? So the size of projects are bigger, the values are a lot bigger. And what does that mean to underwriters?

That means you've got a much larger potential fire loss, right? And not only a potential fire loss, but historically there are lots of losses in this class of business, right? Because we are talking about a building made out of wood, right?

ZAC HERNANDEZ: So, Mike, maybe like in the '80s and the '90s, what was kind of the average wood frame project that you were seeing from a size perspective, I guess in value, was it in the 20s, 30, $40 million range?

MIKE PILLA: Yes, Zac, that would have been a big one, right? 40 million would have been a massive project back then, right? I would say, honestly, back then, the average was probably in the 10 to 20 million range. The average of a large project was probably in that 10 to 20 million range.

WAYNE WILLS: That's significant. So maybe you can share a little bit about what we're seeing. There are fewer construction projects in recent times. Are we starting to see a little bit of a pickup in that respect? Just trying to understand the current marketplace that you're seeing just from a flow standpoint.

ZAC HERNANDEZ: So I think from my perspective, there was a slowdown in 2024, but everything I've read in the developers that I've talked to is they're very optimistic about 2025, right? So interest rates are going down.

So they're very excited optimistic about kind of what's to come. And with that said, they've had a large pipeline since they didn't build in 2024. So there's a lot of dry powder sitting on the sidelines that are ready to go once deals start making sense. So I think it'll be kind of a domino effect once-- as soon as these deals start to pencil out, there's going to be a real influx of projects starting. Mike, would you agree?

MIKE PILLA: Completely. I would completely concur with that, right? We did see a slowdown in a lot of projects, senior housing in particular, right? We didn't see a lot of senior housing during the last year or so. We saw a lot more affordable housing projects, right? So class A apartments, market rate apartments, senior housing, student housing, seemed like that did slow down.

We saw a lot of volume in the affordable housing sector. But to Wayne's point, I believe all of that is senior housing, all of those segments are going to start to pick up in this year, and we are seeing it pick up already.

ZAC HERNANDEZ: You mentioned affordable housing. From an underwriter’s eyes, do you look at affordable housing, multifamily senior living, student housing all as the same, or do you look at them as kind of a different asset class?

Because from the bread and butter, it is wood frame construction, but I guess from your eyes, do you guys underwrite and look at these different types of projects in a different way, depending if they're made for senior living or student housing or multi?

MIKE PILLA: That's a great question. It really is. And to be honest, to some extent, an underwriter that writes large would frame would look at anything built of wood as somewhat similar, but there are vast differences across the segments that you mentioned. Senior housing in particular, the subject we're talking about today, there are some things about senior housing that underwriters do like to see, right?

So what are those things? If you want me to talk about them a little bit would be the fact that-- so we look at a lot of urban infill projects, like Los Angeles, for example. I've probably got 20 active projects in Los Angeles right now.

Right now, urban infill, we don't see urban infill really a lot in senior housing. For the most part, it's out in the suburbs, right? So why is that better for an underwriter? Typically, you're looking at better crime scores, right? So you're seeing better crime scores. Fire department response time might be equal. But as you might imagine, if you're in a big city and it looks like you have a three-minute fire department response time, you might not, right?

So if you're in New York City, for example, and you're trying to get an ambulance or a fire truck even five or six blocks away, that might be a 20 minute trip, right? Where when you're looking at a senior housing project out in the suburbs, if you're mapping that as an underwriter and you think you have a three-minute fire department response time, you probably do have a three-minute fire department response time, right?

So another thing that I think is preferred for senior housing to a wood frame underwriter is typically, you're not looking at a six or five or seven story podium building, right? You might be looking at two story or three story. You might see a lot of garden style, right?

So multi buildings where, again you might not have, from an underwriting perspective, the same fire probable maximum loss because it might not be 100%, which would be a single building or a series of buildings that are very close to each other.

Sometimes on senior housing, oftentimes there's a good spread of risk and you've got lower buildings, which also means less of exposure from a water damage standpoint as well. If you might imagine, a pipe breaking in a wall on the fifth floor of an apartment complex, and that could wind up being a $15 million dollar loss, right? If that happens on a Friday night.

Where if you've got a senior housing project-- most of the ones I've seen are maybe three stories, where that would be significantly less of a potential loss. So there is a big difference between the different types, whether it's class A apartments or affordable housing or senior housing. And I would honestly say most underwriters would look at a senior housing project a little bit that that might be a little bit better project than some of the others that we just talked about.

ZAC HERNANDEZ: You mentioned crime score, Mike. So I know one of the major causes of fire is arson, right? And that's why crime score is important to underwriters. Has arson always been the number one cause of fires, Mike, when you're talking about in the '80s and the '90s, or has arson kind become more and more prevalent?

MIKE PILLA: Yeah. Another great question, Zac. So I honestly think back in the '80s and '90s, the biggest cause of the fire is, at least from what I've seen across the industry, has really been more-- so back then, you didn't have a lot of PVC pipes. So it was more plumber sweating pipes, hot works, welding, grinding things of that nature. A lot of that has been solved for over the years, where there's less introduction of fire into wood frame projects.

It's somewhere in the mid, I'd say maybe 2013, 2014. It seemed like around that time, arson became the number one cause of fire losses. Honestly, not sure why. Some of it is-- when you look at maybe in urban areas, right? Where you're taking an area that might have been more of a lower income area and they're scraping off entire blocks and building luxury housing. Some of arson-- honestly, in a lot of cases, arson fires have become an issue in areas like that.

WAYNE WILLS: I love the fact that we're hearing we expect more construction to be occurring in 2025. So that is some great news. It just makes me think about if that's the case, maybe we're going to see a lot of submissions coming through the underwriting community.

And can we talk for a few minutes about how to best set yourself apart such that your submission is going to get its due attention, and will not sort move to the bottom of that stack? So Zac, as someone who is in this world each and every day as it relates to creating market submissions and making sure that our clients get the optimal attention, can you share some thoughts on how we set our clients apart and to build the best market submission? And then maybe Mike can share his perspective from the underwriting side.

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Absolutely. So I think it's important to note in setting the stage here, there are only a handful of carriers who write this type of business right now, right? So meaning these carriers are seeing thousands of submissions come across their desk.

So I always tell clients of, hey, it's very important to tell your story to the carrier, right? So what's going to make your submission stand out from the 5,000 submissions that they've seen this year? And I don't necessarily tell clients to do anything they're not doing, right?

I always think it's fascinating that there is so much from a risk mitigation standpoint that these developers and that these GCs do. And I think it's vital to come up and just put that story down on paper and then go and sit down with a Mike Pilla and walk through it with them, right?

And I think it's very important, right? You can go do all sorts of things from testing water pipes at double the PSI before you install the drywall, right? Because if that happens and there's a leak, then you're going to be more incentivized to fix the pipe before the drywall is installed.

There's so many things that these developers do that I don't think clients realize how impactful this would be to the carrier. So I think it's our job as a broker to be the voice of our clients and basically help them tell their story, right? What makes them stand out?

Mike and I have been in plenty of meetings. And Mike can jump in here, but I think it's truly a partnership, right? It's just like raising capital, right? It is just as important, especially now in today's world, to be a partner with your insurance carrier.

And I think the best way to start a partnership is to have annual meetings, to have site visits, right? To have a true partnership and sit down with the carrier, explain what you do, but then also be willing to learn and adapt to what the carriers might be seeing in the market and then come up with a best-in-class risk mitigation standard that you're going to do across all of your projects. Mike, would you agree? Did I miss anything? Do you want to jump in there?

MIKE PILLA: Zac, so well said, right? It's so important. And I think Zac alluded to a point where you're putting the underwriters together with the clients because what happens oftentimes is-- and from Rockstar's perspective, we're very consultative on our underwriting approach, right? So meeting with a client, asking a lot of questions about what they're doing.

Oftentimes we'll learn about things in one of those client meetings that we didn't know that actually improves our view of a certain client, right? We didn't know you were doing these things, right? We didn't know you were doing lockout tagout at the end of the day and shutting off all the water sources and locking those down so no one can come into the site after and do anything, right?

So just by sitting with the clients and learning a lot about what they do. We ask for things like, let's take a look at your hot works permitting program, right? We have our own kind of standards for that, and we'll look and work with a client together and say, hey, we love everything you're doing, except if you just did this, that would really improve your project or your entire group of projects in a given year in our eyes and it make us kind of more favorably underwrite some of those.

So, yes, Zac, I couldn't agree more, right? Putting the underwriters and the clients together, sharing information back and forth, even what are you doing on water flow detection, if you're doing anything, would you some ideas about that that would certainly improve a certain type of risk, right?

Now more than ever, it's very important, I think, to bring underwriters and clients together, And I even had a client in one meeting not too long ago say, you know what, years ago, I never wanted to meet my insurance underwriters. I always spent my time focused on my finance partners. He said, now my underwriters are almost equally as important as our finance partners because of the cost of insurance now. It's such a significant part of their budget, right?

WAYNE WILLS: It's so nice to hear, Mike, that you're open to entertain these meetings and to give that kind of prioritization. It's really good to hear. I was hoping we could get into a little bit more detail as it relates to the market submission, because after all, one of the topics we wanted to cover was how to truly set yourself apart from the so many other submissions that you get.

And I know that risk management protocols are a huge part of that. So I was curious, Zac, is this-- before the meeting that you and Mike were just discussing, do we send the submission off to the underwriter and, and in advance of the meeting?

And if so, what's included in that? How do we articulate the various risk management protocols on the products, such as fire suppression, use of water sensors, communication with the GC, things of that nature? Maybe you can help to illustrate what the submission looks like in the flow.

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Yeah, absolutely. So ultimately, it falls on the client with how much information they want to share. I think I'm always an advocate of the more information you share, the better, right? I think there should be certain buckets, we can call them, of items that we should really focus in on.

So one is fire, right? So what are we doing? Everything to prevent a fire. One is water, right? So from a water mitigation standpoint, is there a new system that you have in place or are you testing the pipes in a certain area, right?

If you're in a CAT zone, hey, is there a hurricane preparedness plan? Is there an earthquake plan, right? And then basically a lot of times, kind of I said earlier, there's not necessarily, hey, say this and this will get you the best rate.

It's honestly a lot of stuff that developers are already doing, and I think it's important and vital for the developers to have an open mindset to say, hey, we see insurance rates are going up, no one wants a fire, no one wants a water damage loss, what are we missing here, right?

I've always found that the clients that are willing to be a partner with these carriers go the longest way, too. So really roundabout way to answer your question, Wayne, but I think it's important to set the stage and have a meeting before you send the submission. Let Mike get to know you, let him ask you questions. Like, do you use a third-party GC, an in-house GC, right? And then basically, how do you vet those guys, right?

And then come up with-- I guess the word coming up with is the wrong phrase, right? But kind of sharing with how you guys already do these things I think goes a very long way. And then I think after that every time Mike would then see a submission from client ABC, he would know, oh, I met with these guys, they're awesome, they do this risk mitigation plan from the top down. I think that always goes the longest way too.

So then once you're in the submission, to have a kind of a site-specific plan for each site, I think, goes a long way too, right? Because obviously if you're going to build something in Florida versus Dallas, Texas, it's going to be a totally different exposure, right? From a CAT perspective, crime score perspective, are you building garden style, are you building podium?

So I think it's just kind of important to lay out the overall theme and the culture of the company from the top down, right? And then basically showing as projects come up, hey, what are you guys doing different on this project to the project that you guys started two months ago, right? And I think that, in my experience, has always gone the longest way and is the most impactful in these type of meetings just because you do treat the project differently, right?

So it's important for the carriers to know, right? The last thing you want the carriers to think is, oh, this is another $60 million project in Dallas, we don't know much about this client, we're just going to write it this way, right?

Because I think if-- Mike can correct me if I'm wrong here-- but I think if a carrier has to make an assumption, they kind of go to worst possible outcome, right? So I think if they don't know a piece of information, they can't get it from the broker, they can't get it from the client, they just kind of assume the worst, right?

So that's why I think it's very vital to tell your story, explain the thought process about why you do things a certain way. Why do you use an eight-foot fence as opposed to a six-foot fence, etc., right? And I think that's, in my perspective, kind of goes along this way. In these type of meetings.

WAYNE WILLS: Well said. So the next question is for Mike. So Mike, I was actually talking with someone earlier this week in the investment community for senior living and they were saying for several projects that they were working on last year, the owner actually converted to using steel construction from frame construction because of the exorbitant cost, as they said, for builders risk insurance. So I was curious as to your thoughts on that.

And then maybe you can also share thoughts as it relates to risk considerations that put a big X mark in the project for you that you just would not consider it from an underwriting standpoint. Would love to hear your thoughts on that and any sort of feedback as it relates to the use of steel construction versus wood construction simply because the insurance costs were so significant in a wood frame construction standpoint.

MIKE PILLA: Sure, Wayne. Absolutely. So, yeah, there was a time, right? So in the last few years, there was a time when the cost of wood escalated 300%, right? And not only was the cost of wood that much higher, but it just happened to come at a time when the wood frame market, from an insurance rate standpoint, was also at its high, right?

And both of those things happened together. And we did talk to a lot of clients that talked about maybe using cold rolled steel instead of wood framing. And then things were starting to pencil out a little bit better. That seemed to have shifted a little bit again. Wood is still looking like the cheapest option.

The other part of that, Wayne, is also over the last year, I'd say maybe a little less than year, wood frame rates have come down significantly as well. So timing wise, right now, wood frame would probably still be the cheapest option. And the insurance rates are-- to Zack's point earlier, they went up over 100%. They've come back down again where it's still a little bit more manageable for clients to get a project to pencil out.

So to the other part of your question, what do we absolutely not like as underwriters, and a lot of times it comes down to geography, right? So the easy ones is something exposed to wildfire, right? If you're building something that happens to be right in a wildfire area, underwriters, especially nowadays, are looking at that with a little bit of a jaundiced eye.

Some of the things that are also-- what a wood frame underwriter is concerned about is your public protection class, right? So if you're normally in a PC one through four kind of cities and suburbs, you're probably going to be OK.

If you start getting outside of that, certainly in an unprotected like a 9 or a 10 public protection class, most underwriters don't want to do a big project out there because then there is absolutely no fire department response time, right? Even in some areas, even in like New Jersey, Pennsylvania, where you get out into the second layer of suburbs, if you will, and you've got all volunteer fire departments, things like that start to concern underwriters, where they'd probably pass on certain risks because of that.

So geography, public protection class. The other thing I think that really I would say would be a big go/no go for most underwriters, you get your developer and he hires a GC and that GC was building kind of little townhomes of single family homes and now he's going to build a podium with five stories of wood on top, and maybe he's only done one before. Maybe this is his first one.

Normally that's going to be a no-go for most wood frame underwriters as well. You want to see general contractors that have a good history of building a very similar type project to the one that you're going to be underwriting.

WAYNE WILLS: Fabulous. Thank you so much, Mike. I did have a question for Zac. As we talk about building the market submission, I had one more quick question along that line. And I think it was you, Zac, who told me at one time that we have to be really critical in our knowledge of the applicable building codes.

And folks like Mike are really-- they scrutinize heavily to make sure that the general contractor knows the applicable building codes really, really well, because if not, it could cause a delay in construction. Obviously, the cost can continue to go up.

So, Zac, as it relates to building codes and assurance that the GC is well aware of the applicable ones, do you have some insight that you could share with the audience in how we best inform our clients in that regard and incorporate that into the market submission?

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's kind of three separate types of clients, right? You have the owners who have an in-house GC, then you have an owner who has their third-party GC, and then you have kind of the PE firms that like to invest, right? Those are the three-- in my eyes, the three types of companies that would place builders risk, right?

So I think from a carrier's eyes, it's all a different type of culture at each of those types of three companies I just said, right? So the guys who hire a third party GC, I think it's very important to advertise and market the GC's experience, right?

Do they have experience in the wood frame space? If they do, where have they built before, right? Are they better in California and they're expanding to Texas for the first time, or what is their experience there? And a lot of times, Wayne, if the owners are client will get the GC on the phone with the carriers.

We've had geo-tech engineers on the phones with the carriers explaining the soil reports, right? So again, it all goes back to the more information we can explain to the carriers, the better, right? The last thing a broker should be is just pushing paper.

If we're simply receiving information, receiving a Gantt chart, receiving a geo-tech report and just hitting forward and it going to the carrier, I think that the broker is doing a disservice, right? I think it is our job to really market your company to the carrier, right? And I think it's in everyone's best interest to do that, right?

It's in Mike's best interest because he wants his portfolio and his book to do well, it's in the client's best interest, and it's in the broker's best interest as well, right? So the more information-- if we can get the GC on the phone, explain the history of the GC, if the GC can provide lost runs, that would be huge, right? How is the GC getting paid, right? Are they are they getting paid if they finish the project by a certain deadline, right?

Because if that's the case, then I think from a carrier's eyes, they look at that and say, well, hold on, these guys are going to try to cut corners if they're running behind just so they get this extra bonus, right? So the carriers know all that, right? So it's just getting the GC on the phone and understanding the GC relationship with the owner. Have they partnered before in this going down that route? I think I've always seen to have the best success.

WAYNE WILLS: Great feedback. Thanks so much, Zac. So Mike, as it relates to the market submission and getting yours and your peers attention in that regard, is there anything else you could share with our audience that is critically important to you to ensure the best result?

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Well, hold on. If I could spin the question a little bit. Mike, if you-- for a senior living client specifically, would you like to see anything else specifically in a submission from a senior living client, as opposed to a multifamily or student housing client?

MIKE PILLA: Yep. No, thank you. Great, guys. Yeah. So for us, obviously, from an underwriting standpoint, and Zac alluded to this earlier as well, getting a bunch of information-- so your site plans, your geo-techs, your line item budgets, your rent proformas, all of that, any broker can just pull together and send to you, right?

But it's a little bit more of, to Zack's point earlier, the getting together with the client, the meeting with the GC, even if it's a phone call to talk about certain things where we can ask questions, and they can articulate.

In a senior living situation-- so I think one of the things that's important to us and certainly important to all the wood frame underwriters is security, right? Site surveillance and security, right? Because that's your first method of preventing an arson fire, right? Is having adequate security.

So senior projects, they create a little bit of a challenge in terms of some of them might be, again, out in the suburbs. It might be a 10-acre site, might be a 20-acre site, right? So it might be more than just securing a postage stamp size site in the middle of a city where you put up some perimeter fencing, you put up some really good perimeter camera system and boom, you're done, right? And then you're comfortable with that.

With some of the senior projects that we've seen, we get into a little bit more about their security method. And honestly, it could be a 20-acre site with the security guard who's riding around in a golf cart, right? So, hey, I'm going to patrol the site in a certain method.

That for us would be a good solution. But I think the one thing on senior housing, more than anything really is how they're going to secure it, because typically it's not your standard podium project, right? They're generally larger footprint project sites.

WAYNE WILLS: Excellent. Thank you so much, Mike. So this concludes part one of this podcast series. We're doing this as a two-part podcast series, specifically focusing on builders risk insurance and the senior living space.

And the focus of today's discussion, of course, was on setting the stage-- you know, how did we get here as it relates to the current senior living builders risk market? And then creating that optimal market submission. What is included in there? How does the discussion flow with the underwriting community?

In the second part of our series, we're going to talk about the next parts of the process, which is negotiating with the respective market to secure optimal terms, the ongoing communication during the construction project, and, if you will, building rapport for future placements with that carrier.

As we talked earlier, this is a relationship, this is a project, and hopefully it leads to further projects down the line. So relations with the market and the builders and the broker are critically important. So thank you so much, Mike, for joining the podcast today.

MIKE PILLA: Thank you, Wayne. It was a great pleasure to be here and I appreciate the time.

WAYNE WILLS: And thank you so much, Zac. We appreciate your participation.

ZAC HERNANDEZ: Yeah, absolutely. And happy to do it. And thank you, Mike, for doing it. It's always fun to sit down and talk with you, and I always learn something new every time so I really appreciate it.

WAYNE WILLS: And Thanks to all the listeners out there. We greatly appreciate that and look forward to our next Senior Advisor podcast. Rhonda.

RHONDA DEMENO: This concludes our podcast for today. Many thanks to Mike, Zac, and Wayne for their time today and sharing this important information. We hope you enjoyed our discussion and look forward to you joining us for episode two on Builder's Risk, where we will discuss project exposures and other important information specific to the senior living industry. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Senior Advisor.

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